bepah
Active Member
Discussion thread for MEDITERRANEAN SURVIVABILTY INDEX ZONE 3B: The Pygmy Date Zone. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
MEDITERRANEAN SURVIVABILTY INDEX ZONE 3B: The Pygmy Date Zone
- Thread starter bepah
- Start date
I don't know why John, but most people are scared to death to do that.
Dave from So-Cal
Well-Known Member
Hmm. INteresting.
What are Zones 1 & 2? Are there Zones 4, 5, etc?
What are Zones 1 & 2? Are there Zones 4, 5, etc?
Go to the Main Page www.palmpedia.net and click on the Palmpedia Survivability Index. You should be able to get the idea of what is going on, although it's a real can of worms when you start discussing hardiness.
That is why I thought the concept of relative hardiness was a more useful tool than trying to decipher temps. Knowing what is hardier in a ranking system would instantly give you a list of what will grow for you, and what won't.
Anyway, check out that link and tell me if that helps. It could use someone like you to add some input. It has kinda lost my attention now for obvious Hawaiian reasons.
It would be a valuable reference for new and old growers. And we have a lot of info now, with more possible from Florida this year.
I just felt that when you see two similar sized species side by side in a garden, and one got fried while the other lived, that info was worth noting and using - as opposed to trying to determine what temp, how long, what humidity, what microclimate, etc. If a Phoenix rob. stays alive in a specific location over the years, that is an excellent clue as to what else will. And if you see a nice mature Foxtail or Bizzie alive in a certain area, that would tell you something about that area as well. In other words, anything hardier than a Foxtail (or Bizzie) would be fair game - if only there was a scale. Enter the Survivability Scale.
That is why I thought the concept of relative hardiness was a more useful tool than trying to decipher temps. Knowing what is hardier in a ranking system would instantly give you a list of what will grow for you, and what won't.
Anyway, check out that link and tell me if that helps. It could use someone like you to add some input. It has kinda lost my attention now for obvious Hawaiian reasons.
It would be a valuable reference for new and old growers. And we have a lot of info now, with more possible from Florida this year.I just felt that when you see two similar sized species side by side in a garden, and one got fried while the other lived, that info was worth noting and using - as opposed to trying to determine what temp, how long, what humidity, what microclimate, etc. If a Phoenix rob. stays alive in a specific location over the years, that is an excellent clue as to what else will. And if you see a nice mature Foxtail or Bizzie alive in a certain area, that would tell you something about that area as well. In other words, anything hardier than a Foxtail (or Bizzie) would be fair game - if only there was a scale. Enter the Survivability Scale.
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R. madagascariensis?????
I have a large R. mad. "monticola" that has never suffered cold damage. Even when younger, at around 27 it was OK while a similar sized H. bemoreana, D. lutescens, and Caryota urens, all fried to death. Ask me how I remember. They were all the first rare palms I purchased and planted before the 1980 freeze event. And I have another R. mad. 'mt. form' that is more sensitive. So I don't know what to tell you. I have even heard rumors that R. mad. 'mont' might really be R. dransfieldii. So I am unsure as to what a true R. mad really is.
As to P. rob. - they seem to start burning around 29 for me in Coastal SoCal.
As mentioned, I am fairly disconnected from this whole concept these days. So I am comfortable letting those still experiencing Calif. conditions to take the ball and discuss and run with it. So John, if you feel secure in a judgement, based on actual experience, feel free to act on it. A note here would be nice so anyone disputing a placement can chime in.
I have a large R. mad. "monticola" that has never suffered cold damage. Even when younger, at around 27 it was OK while a similar sized H. bemoreana, D. lutescens, and Caryota urens, all fried to death. Ask me how I remember. They were all the first rare palms I purchased and planted before the 1980 freeze event. And I have another R. mad. 'mt. form' that is more sensitive. So I don't know what to tell you. I have even heard rumors that R. mad. 'mont' might really be R. dransfieldii. So I am unsure as to what a true R. mad really is.
As to P. rob. - they seem to start burning around 29 for me in Coastal SoCal.
As mentioned, I am fairly disconnected from this whole concept these days. So I am comfortable letting those still experiencing Calif. conditions to take the ball and discuss and run with it. So John, if you feel secure in a judgement, based on actual experience, feel free to act on it. A note here would be nice so anyone disputing a placement can chime in.
bepah
Active Member
My experience is NorCal in nature and hence my problem here, and I am glad you are responding. Was your R. mad in a protected area? My R. riv is next to the spa and Koi pond and has little damage this year (low of 27).
Here in Brentwood, the P. robs are mostly top frozen,..mine are green and happy, merely because they are up next to a fence on thier West and protected additionally by the house next door as well. We'll see if it is true once they achieve 10 feet in height, which at the rate they are growing, will be this winter (they are 6 feet tall right now). Additionally, I have cut no fronds off except the brown ones at the bottom. I think the heavy leafing creates its own microclimate. It may be 27 around the palm but the leaves insulate the air inside the palms and keep it significantly warmer. I cannot see the trunks without bending over and lifting the lower fronds. In fact, they seeded this year and I never saw the flowering as it was all inside the heavy greenery. I suspect that this year the bottom fronds will die back and I'll be able to be able to see the bottom part of the trunks.
In any case, I'm with you Dean, if anyone has different experience, please dig in. NorCal and SoCal may have 9b zones, but they are very different.
My H. belmoreana are inside but will be coming out in a few weeks, I have a Caryota that is hanging on by a thread (it is 15 feet from the roebellinis) but spring is sprining and life is good.
My R. 'mont' was/is unprotected. But I am unclear about your statement. You mentioned R. mad and then referenced R. riv???
You can see my R. mont here HERE
Re: Different zones in NorCal as opposed to SoCal
That is the main reason I was attempting to rank things by species instead of temps. For example, if a P. rob dies before a Dypsis onilahensis in SoCal, it should die before a D. onil in SoCal as well. So witnessing living P. robs in any area of Calif. should give a grower the green light to plant D. onilahensis in that area, regardless of reported temps, or perceived growing zones.
bepah
Active Member
That's because my riv is still alive and the mad is dead.....
I was just using the Genus as a common thread, probably incorrectly.
In reference to the D. onil, maybe I should try one next to my P. robs....
Still, I think that regardless of the local zone, microclimatization occurs within feet of each palm. I like the survivability index and I hope to add to it, but notes on envelope pushing palms may need to be made.
Yes John I agree. That is why I think it's particularly noteworthy when two palms of similar size are planted side by side and one fries and one doesn't. I think that kind of info should be preserved - therefore a ranking when this info is available.
BTW - I wasn't declaring a D. onil as hardier than a P. rob, but I think it may be, and I would be curious to know of anyone's experiences. I bet someone already has an experience with those two, side by side.
BTW - I wasn't declaring a D. onil as hardier than a P. rob, but I think it may be, and I would be curious to know of anyone's experiences. I bet someone already has an experience with those two, side by side.
bepah
Active Member
If no one has the experience, I would be glad to volunteer....just need to find one